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What did you learn? What can you share: Lessons of Cascade Fire

    • 2564 posts
    51
    November 2, 2017 7:10:53 PM PDT
    Would a water truck at each fire station be cost effective?
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    52
    November 2, 2017 7:21:18 PM PDT
    http://www.co.yuba.ca.us/departments/community%20development/building/fire%20documents/FIRE%20SAFE%20ORDINANCE.pdf
    Yuba County 2008. Does your property water comply?
  • TN
    • 420 posts
    53
    November 2, 2017 7:26:43 PM PDT
    We are hoping to afford a tactical tender soon at Oregon House. We have maps of tanks, but in practicality other departments coming up don't. Even their GPS maps of the roads don't work right. On a huge fire I don't put the engine on the air simply because I know we are the only ones who knows the area, back roads, and escape routes. We can stay mobile and advise other engines of water, roads and anything else. I was directing dozers up the front of Stanfield hill Sunday night so they would connect into the existing fire breaks so the fire could be stopped at Dolan Harding. More water trucks would be a huge help, unfortunately Californias new smog laws forced most of our normal sources to send their trucks to auction.
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    November 2, 2017 7:42:14 PM PDT
    TN thanks. Well....I DO have an inground pool. Rhat ought to work, huh?
  • TN
    • 420 posts
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    November 2, 2017 7:59:59 PM PDT
    Cool Breeze. Heck yeah! A fire engine carries 500-700 gallons, your pool is probably 13-20,000 gallons. A fire engine has to get pretty close to it unless they have a portable pump. Some, but not all engines do.
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    November 2, 2017 8:06:35 PM PDT
    Hm, portable pump not always on board,huh?
    Pool is 15,000 gal. Pool is closer to the main road than our home, I'd say at least 50 feet from rd. (all fenced in) Thanks, again, something to think about.
  • TN
    • 420 posts
    57
    November 2, 2017 8:19:36 PM PDT
    Cool Breeze, It's fine if it's away from the house. Can an engine get close to it though? Most engines only carry about 20" of hard suction hose. If an engine can't get close consider putting a "dry hydrant" in, or getting a pump. my webpage mentioned above or the firecarts facebook page will describe pump options even though I'm not really in a position to build much now.
  • TN
    • 420 posts
    58
    November 2, 2017 8:19:57 PM PDT
    20'
    • 1526 posts
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    November 2, 2017 9:14:07 PM PDT
    Thanks, TN. Actually, our drive to the home is long, and wide, and cement, and if a firetruck drove 50 ft down the drive, the truck would be within the 20 ft. of pool. Odd how a person doesn't notice some things until an emergency happens. 20feet....I'll remember that. Or a pump.
    • 2564 posts
    60
    November 3, 2017 9:24:26 AM PDT
    TN said:
    We are hoping to afford a tactical tender soon at Oregon House. We have maps of tanks, but in practicality other departments coming up don't. Even their GPS maps of the roads don't work right. On a huge fire I don't put the engine on the air simply because I know we are the only ones who knows the area, back roads, and escape routes. We can stay mobile and advise other engines of water, roads and anything else. I was directing dozers up the front of Stanfield hill Sunday night so they would connect into the existing fire breaks so the fire could be stopped at Dolan Harding. More water trucks would be a huge help, unfortunately Californias new smog laws forced most of our normal sources to send their trucks to auction.

    TN. has anone ever told you that you are the only one with a map
    "problem"? Or a PSAP on N-1-1 service told you to get a life?

  • TN
    • 420 posts
    61
    November 3, 2017 2:16:29 PM PDT
    Those fires move so fast, everyone is winging it. Even the local calfire station was already staffed by an out of county engine most likely. That’s why I prefer to keep volunteer engines patrolling for spots and drawing maps out for the incoming fire units. If they went on scene they would just be told to stay at a single house and forgot about. With one of our engines free it saved all the house on the east side of Marysville Rd on Leah, lakeside and Collins, except one unoccupied older mobile on Stanfield Hill. We simply didn’t have the manpower for all the houses up there, and that was the one that would be the least loss. We didn’t get air support for 17 hours because the Cascade was the smallest fire at the time. Priorities went to lake wildwood and napa.
    • 1526 posts
    62
    November 3, 2017 3:36:19 PM PDT
    I remember reading about the speed of the fire, unbelievable. Hats off to you firemen who risk lives and save structures for people you probably don't know. Pretty admirable, TN.
  • TN
    • 420 posts
    63
    November 3, 2017 4:02:17 PM PDT
    Thanks, It was truly the fastest fire I have ever seen. We clocked wind at 83 MPH near Collins. There wasn't even time to notify people. As far as things to learn, I think it would be wise to install at least one hardline phone. Cordless phones may not work for reverse 911 warnings with power out. Also I believe you have to sign up for alerts for it to actually work.
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    November 3, 2017 5:19:38 PM PDT
    TN, yes, my wife connected to red code or code red, or something like that. Gave you up to date info on the fire and evacs.
    • 2564 posts
    65
    November 4, 2017 8:51:11 AM PDT
    coolbreeze said:
    TN thanks. Well....I DO have an inground pool. Rhat ought to work, huh?

    Ask your insurance company.

    • 2564 posts
    66
    November 4, 2017 8:57:30 AM PDT
    In my opinion.
    Fire Science is understood by the people whose life depends on knowing how fire behaves. Fire Science is unknown to those who depend too much on the people who know fire science.
    Political aspects of fire are taboo. What policy should be in place regarding occupancy permits? Two means of entry/exit? Fuels clearance 60 feet wide on roads? Water for fire fighting? Sprinkler systems? Periodic inspection of water sources?
    Financial aspects of fire. Another taboo, in my opinion. What did SRA residents get for their fire tax money? Who does risk assessment? Who pays for the fire fighters and fire fighting equipment?
    • 1526 posts
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    November 4, 2017 9:12:51 AM PDT
    My insurance company will have nothing but kudos for me if I put out the supposed fire at my home.
    • 2564 posts
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    November 4, 2017 10:33:19 AM PDT
    County of Yuba Ordinance Requirements for Rural Fire Protection

    http://www.co.yuba.ca.us/departments/community%20development/building/fire%20documents/FIRE%20SAFE%20ORDINANCE.pdf
  • TN
    • 420 posts
    69
    November 4, 2017 12:28:28 PM PDT
    Insurance companies do not want you to stay and fight the fire. They would rather deal with monetary loss than death or injury. I know they don't give discounts for the fire pumps I build, otherwise they would be easier to sell. Not sure what their feeling is about available water. Usually they rate your house by the district and ISO rating I believe. That is confusing enough. Many have had their insurance cancelled because the company has the wrong info.
    • 1526 posts
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    November 4, 2017 3:33:38 PM PDT
    Thanks, good to know. In the end, I'll do what's right for myself and family. They can evac, I'll probably stay and fight the fire, if it would seem productive. Of course I'm only speaking for myself (and probably many others). If there is a chance to save property, I will. That's why I appreciate the info. A person would really feel bad if they evacuated, and found out later they could have saved tbeir property, (especially when having a hydrant at the end of their driveway, and 15,000 Gallons (although NEVER drain an ingound completely) of water available. That would be really upset me, LOL. Call it: Fighting the good fight.
    • 1526 posts
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    November 4, 2017 3:36:29 PM PDT
    Myself,(and most people I know) don't like or believe in insurance to bail you out. That's very immature to strictly rely on others. Just sayin'.
    • 2564 posts
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    November 4, 2017 6:28:20 PM PDT
    Subject: Can California Prevent Next Wildfire?

    https://alumni.berkeley.edu/california-magazine/just-in/2017-10-30/burning-question-can-california-prevent-next-wildfire

    ",,,now in the post mortem phase of the ... fire storms, asking what could’ve been done to avoid the tragedy and what can be done in the future to prevent similar conflagrations. Discussions largely have focused on tighter zoning and fire ordinances. Those are appropriate areas to focus on, say many wildfire experts, but municipalities and counties inevitably face pressures that make effective wildfire risk reduction difficult...."
    • 1526 posts
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    November 7, 2017 1:53:41 PM PST
    TN not only am i informed with your info, but others also, I'm sure. Don't let it go to your head, but it's good to have a "doctor in the house", LOL. (fire country).
  • TN
    • 420 posts
    74
    November 7, 2017 7:31:32 PM PST
    Thanks, but this fire was a beast that literally kicked our but for a week. Haven't seen fire driven that fast ever.Don't want to see it again for sure.
    • 1526 posts
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    November 8, 2017 6:31:16 AM PST
    TN if you could tell me if NH or NPSH thread on hydrant. Thanks
  • TN
    • 420 posts
    76
    November 8, 2017 7:37:55 AM PST
    If it's set up for fire it is NST (sometimes called NH). If it's just just standard plumbing fittings it will be NPT (pipe thread). It won't be NPSH
  • TN
    • 420 posts
    77
    November 8, 2017 7:41:43 AM PST
    The most common uses for NPSH fittings are 1" hose or the gasketed fittings on gas powered pumps.
    • 1526 posts
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    November 8, 2017 10:14:08 AM PST
    Yes, I see it is NST (NH). Thanks.
    • 2564 posts
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    November 8, 2017 11:08:26 AM PST
    TN said:
    Insurance companies do not want you to stay and fight the fire. They would rather deal with monetary loss than death or injury. I know they don't give discounts for the fire pumps I build, otherwise they would be easier to sell. Not sure what their feeling is about available water. Usually they rate your house by the district and ISO rating I believe. That is confusing enough. Many have had their insurance cancelled because the company has the wrong info.
    ISO, Insurance Service Office.
    Insurance companies are trending away from using ISO ratings to set insurance rates. ISO depends heavily on NFPA standards. National Fire Protection Assoiation. Both ISO and NFPA are private, fee for service profit entities.
    Some insurance companies have discontinued purchasing ISO data and using it to calculate rates. Instead of using a theoretical risk evaluation they have opted for a system where they use the actual loss within a zip code. (This includes all losses due to fire, flood, lightening, hail, etc.) After an article, a few years ago, on the subject, in an International Association of Fire Chiefs newsletter about how State Farm Insurance had decided to go to a "subzone" system in several states, State Farm was contacted. State Farm told me that they felt that they were one of the last companies to go to the zip code method of calculating premiums. They thought that most smaller companies had adopted this prior to them. State Farm is the largest homeowner insurance company, in the U.S., and writes over a third of all homeowner policies in many states with a 20% average nationwide.

    http://www.fireserviceinfo.com/iso.html

    Public Protection Classification (PPC)  One result is that local fire departments are concentrating on loss reduction, prevention, quicker resonse, tighter zoning sprinklered houses 

     

    Cogy to Fire Safe Councils Yuba, Butte, Nevada. Yuba Special District Fire Depertments. Yuba County Risk Manager.                           

     

     

     

     

    • 2564 posts
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    November 8, 2017 11:38:49 AM PST
    NFPA National Fire Protection Associaion
    http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=1142

    1.1 Scope.
    1.1.1 This standard identifies a method of determining the minimum requirements for alternative water supplies for structural fire-fighting purposes in areas where the authority having jurisdiction (AHJ) determines that adequate and reliable water supply systems for fire-fighting purposes do not otherwise exist.
    1.1.2 An adequate and reliable municipal-type water supply is one that is sufficient every day of the year to control and extinguish anticipated fires in the jurisdiction, particular building, or building group served by the water supply.

    Need ,pre information? Find someone who has purchased NFPA document access.
    • 2564 posts
    81
    November 8, 2017 11:59:23 AM PST
    California Department of Insurance
    http://www.insurance.ca.gov/01-consumers/140-catastrophes/WildfireResources.cfm
    • 1526 posts
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    November 8, 2017 4:56:16 PM PST
    TN, most good gas powered pumps use 2"-3" in % out. Reducing the outlet size can be done, but it can cause excessive backpressure in the pump, possibly leading to earlier pump failure. I'm awaiting furthur info from a pump specialist.
    • 1526 posts
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    November 8, 2017 4:56:44 PM PST
    THat's in & out.
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    November 8, 2017 5:04:28 PM PST
    Also, on a best pump, 2''in & out at 42psi, after 100 feet of hose, only alut 25-28psi. Not sure what our regular pressure is up here, but about 40 on city water. Of course ours up her is less. wondering if 25-s8 will suffice.
    • 4977 posts
    85
    November 8, 2017 7:57:13 PM PST
    I wonder if there will be a discussion about how people wre treated at the roadblocks? wrying to pass food, meds, check on animals, etc? Sheriff Durfor's threat to arrest everyone that won't leave next time? Some of us haven't forgotten.
    • 1526 posts
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    November 9, 2017 8:36:48 AM PST
    Durfor's threat....isn't that over the line?
    • 4977 posts
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    November 9, 2017 8:58:09 AM PST
    I thought so. Maybe it was heat of the moment, I don't know.
    • 2564 posts
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    November 9, 2017 2:18:38 PM PST
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Fire_Academy
    National Fire Academy, Emmitsburg, Maryland.
    Please tell me what you know about the National Fire Adacamy.
  • TN
    • 420 posts
    89
    November 14, 2017 6:33:50 AM PST
    Coolbreeze, I only use Honda WH15XT (1-1/2") and WH20XT (2"). They maintain pressure above 50psi even with several hundred feet of hose. I do reduce the 2" one to 1 1/2" fire hose. I have ones I built in the 90's still working fine. 99% of gas pumps out there are lower pressure, built for more volume. There are higher pressure pumps out there, but the are finicky as far as priming and starting. Those high pressure Hondas are the best compramise that I've tested. And Dick Boyd as far as zip codes, an insurance company might need explanations. My house is located physically in 95918. For fire and mail it's 95962. They changed my rating from an ISO8 to a 6/6Y. Not sure what the difference is.
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    November 14, 2017 8:15:28 AM PST
    TN, thanks. Do the pumps you recommend, are the hoses for such pumps, can nozzles be attached? I know this sounds maybe silly, but I do know that many gas pumps, their hoses will not accept nozzles. Once again, thank you for the honda pumps models....very important info.
  • TN
    • 420 posts
    91
    November 14, 2017 8:31:47 AM PST
    For the outlet You have to buy a female (2" or 1 1/2" depending on pump) NPSH x 1 1/2 Male NST adapter. Make sure it is the gasketed NPSH. Most places will sell tapered NPT and tell you it is NPSH. You can wrench on a NPT adapter, but it's probably not coming back off without galling the threads. The adapter is about $30, I have some if you have trouble finding them online. The nozzles are either 30 gpm lexan forestry nozzles ( about $30) OR 95 GPM lexan ones. (about $55) The 30gpm is fine for most needs and helps keep pressure up. I can set you up with those, the hardware store also can get them through ther dixon/elsworth supplier.
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    November 14, 2017 9:37:23 AM PST
    TN, thanks. on the honda website they don't recognize the wh15xt. Could there be another number or such?
    • 1526 posts
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    November 14, 2017 9:38:52 AM PST
    TN, however there is a wh15 with 1.5 outlets.
    • 1526 posts
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    November 14, 2017 9:40:05 AM PST
    OOps there is a wh15xta.
  • TN
    • 420 posts
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    November 14, 2017 9:40:40 AM PST
    That's the new number. It will be WH15X----, they only have two WH pumps, the H stands for high pressure. Gridley growers will have the best prices, they are around $700. The smaller one is plenty unless you are pumping up a high hill.
  • TN
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    November 14, 2017 9:42:15 AM PST
    The trick is to have it all setup and ready to go. In a panic it simply won't work if you have to find, plumb and organize stuff while getting hit with a hailstorm of embers.
    • 2564 posts
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    November 14, 2017 2:28:37 PM PST
    TN said:
    SNIP My house is located physically in 95918. For fire and mail it's 95962. They changed my rating from an ISO8 to a 6/6Y. Not sure what the difference is.
    https://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/articles/PPC-Announcement-Brochure.pdf
    The way I read it , the difference is "reliable water source". Split designation does not apply in Texas. 
    Ask someone who has attended the Emmittsburg Fire Management course that deals with loss mitigation.
    Check the PM for a reply from California's Insurance Commission.
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    November 14, 2017 2:57:44 PM PST
    TN thanks much. I found one for $609. Yes, ready to go, that's the trick.
    • 1526 posts
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    November 14, 2017 2:58:18 PM PST
    Hose direct was $609, at least right now.