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Abortion

    • 362 posts
    1
    July 6, 2017 10:17:36 PM PDT

    The Oregon house passed a bill requiring insurance companies in Oregon to cover murder of babies(abortions) and other reproductive services at no cost to the patient regardless of income, citizenship status or gender identity. These abortion costs also apply to illegal aliens

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    July 7, 2017 8:22:40 AM PDT
    According to the A & G Show this morning, Oregon allows abortions up to the 8th month. Maybe someone on this forum has more or better information?
    As far as what Oregon has passed: that cost will passed on to the rate payers. It isn't the insurance paying for anything.
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    July 12, 2017 4:57:11 PM PDT
    Abortions are a terrible thing, that is undeniable. But what is worse is when they are not legal and woman die also being forced out of the medical facilities and into back alleys. The Oregon bill also requires that all government and private-sector health plans must also cover birth control, vasectomies, prenatal and post-partum care, counseling for domestic abuse victims as well as screenings for cervical and breast cancer and sexually transmitted diseases. As far as providing abortions to undocumented immigrants, I am confused why you think that's a bad thing. Would you rather they had unwanted children to be raised in homes that can't provide for them and become those so called "anchor babies?" I don't debate the awfulness of abortions, however just like drugs, guns, and prostitution these things exist and we can't wish them away by making them illegal. We have to work on the underlying issues that lead to them. One of the ways to reduce abortions is to make contraception more widely available and improve health care access for women, so the Oregon bill should reduce abortions in the long term.
    • 362 posts
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    July 13, 2017 8:14:26 AM PDT
    cymbalyon I respect your point of view however I can not accept the view that it is ok to kill babies.
    Watch "The Silent Scream".
    I could not watch all of it.
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    July 13, 2017 2:47:54 PM PDT
    Nobody thinks it's ok to kill babies. I was trying to say that some people are trying to reduce abortions by reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies. Other people are trying to go back in time when we tried to reduce abortions by criminalizing them. Criminalizing things (like prostitution, drugs, abortions) does not make them go away. It just makes them more dangerous. We need to work on the issues that are causing the problem and not just criminalize the behavior.
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    July 13, 2017 5:00:21 PM PDT
    I'm torn about the whole issue. Abortion to me is murder, plain and simple. I didn't always think that way. It should be used only for protection of the mother's health, incest, rape; not for birth control. (I kill a fetus in a car wreck and I can get charged with a crime but Mom can kill that fetus no sweat.)
    I think part of the reason for abortions is we don't hold the males accountable for the babies they make. I've seen it over and over.
    There is also an argument to be made for the woman making a choice to have sex without birth control. Men too.
    Adoption is always a choice.
    Access to birth control is probably a good thing. Is it up to the taxpayers to fund people's fun? I don't know, I see both sides of the issue. Society demeans those that wait until marriage for sex - that's outdated, not cool, old thinking, not realistic, and so on. Look what happened when Tebow knelt and prayed and look what happens when Beyonce' or Janet Jackson show a lot of skin.
    What's really tough is a lot of single parent families end up with kids in trouble.
    There's also a school of thought that the breakdown of the family and people dependent on the government keep a certain portion of the people voting a certain way because that's who takes of them. (President Johnson's plan).

    Great discussion, no easy answers. Sex education is important too.

    Thanks everyone for keeping it civil. This is a very volatile subject at best.
    • 1526 posts
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    July 13, 2017 6:02:56 PM PDT
    to cymbalyon: Your's is the same old leftist talk. You say, eg. that criminalizing dope doesn't work----of course it DOES. I was busted when 18 years old, had to pay some
    time. So, afterward I didn't do it again. Same with prostitution. Back in my younger day I knew a couple prostitutes. Once busted they gave it up, or at least minimalized it. You are wrong. and probably also concerning the abortion law in oregon. Back-door abortions will NOT return, no matter how much you say it will.
    • 362 posts
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    July 14, 2017 8:50:00 AM PDT
    It is reported that 472 innocent & helpless children are killed by abortion every day in California and they don’t have to be performed by doctors. Furthermore the taxpayers like us are funding many of these abortions against our will.
    This is my last post on the subject unless I am attacked personally. It should be clear my opinion on the subject.

    • 1133 posts
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    July 14, 2017 7:42:05 PM PDT
    This is a discussion which will not remain civil. Less than 10 messages and already it's degraded into someone being called leftist and all the negative perceptions that are front loaded with it.

    So the question arises will the law stop abortions (legal or otherwise). No it won't. That being the case if abortion is illegal and someone it set to get it what happens? They go to an illegal set up, and yes they will and do exists now simply because there are doctors out there who are unethical and unprofessional, or they will be self performed. Anyone can acquire herbal or natural remedy information to do this, and will. Do we outlaw that information or restrict it?

    Don't have sex or have protected sex and no worries. 1) Unrealistic because we know it won't happen with everyone. 2) How do we monitor this activity to enforce it? We can't even under the most draconian methods so what do we do with the people who don't adhere to that standard? Religious Tribunals? Public Shaming? The stocks, FB announcements etc.?

    The issue is extremely complex because one decision generates hundreds more which need to be addressed at the same time it is, otherwise the legislation becomes ineffective and simply a poorly disguised religious document at best.
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    July 16, 2017 3:13:19 PM PDT
    So the answer is since someone will do it, abortion, make it legal and then it is right. Then by making murder or any other crime, which are all moral issues, that will take care of all the moral problems because they are only poorly disguised religious documents at best. Now that is what I call logic you can build a real safe and sane society on.
    • 1526 posts
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    July 16, 2017 4:56:18 PM PDT
    Oregon lawmakers MUST have real holes in their heads.....unbelievable, just unbelievable. Are you telling me a woman, who at the last minute of delivery, say a day or so, can actually abort the child. Not being very astute on women's birthing issues, I find this to be absolutely horrrible and yes, murder. There's no other term for it, IF you can abort the child a day before birth. Just unbelievable, I MUST be mistaken!!
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    July 17, 2017 8:40:02 AM PDT
    It isn't that they have holes in their heads. There is a section of society that doesn't believe a fetus is a person until birth. They believe what a mother does with that fetus is her right. Understand? I do. Agree with?
    I do not.
    Then there's a section that believes life starts at conception.
    Depending on what you personally believe forms the opinion on abortion.
    I think both sides agree it is a very volatile subject at best. Toss in the government and tax dollars and it gets messy quickly.

    I've known a few people in my life that have had abortions for unwanted children. (Not for health reasons, rape or incest.) All are unanimous about never again. Just my anecdotal experiences which are few.

    Going forward, I think there needs to be a discussion about contraception and abstinence (neither are practiced 100% by any stretch), accessibility to contraception, and adoption. I think there should be a much better process for holding both parents responsible until the child is 18. Unemployed deadbeat parents can clean parks, pick up trash, wash government vehicles, do filing, work at schools if their background permits, and perform other service jobs until they either find a real job or gain enough skills to find a decent job.
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    July 17, 2017 9:02:30 AM PDT
    I guess you have to "consider the source".....most people wanting this law are probably inner city "don't give a damn about anyone but me" people. Under obama, all these people were given all they want. I am surprised oregon has stooped so low over the last 20 years. Once "slacking" starts, it's hard to stop. It will most likely take a few years, (under the right), but hopefully common sense will prevail down the road.
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    July 17, 2017 10:54:00 AM PDT
    dpietz said:
    So the answer is since someone will do it, abortion, make it legal and then it is right. Then by making murder or any other crime, which are all moral issues, that will take care of all the moral problems because they are only poorly disguised religious documents at best. Now that is what I call logic you can build a real safe and sane society on.

    Once again I have to remind you if you are going to quote me do so accurately.  I never said make it legal.  When you make laws it can not be done in a vaccum and you have to consider all other sources when doing so, otherwise yes, in this instance it does become a poorly disguised religious documents and that means you start dictating doctrine via legislation and loose the separation of church and state.

     

    So your solution is make a law that says don't do it and people will follow it and it will stop.  Abortion will not happen again and all the social ills and concerns tied in with it will go away.  That is a hopeless ignorant way to approach it.  So what do we do to the people who have an abortion?  You never did answer that question.  Forced re-education camps, Death Penalty, forced sterilization, imprisonment (where your tax dollars support their stay)?  Or do you leave these questions to the law makers and you just close your eyes and push the button to vote?

    • 631 posts
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    July 17, 2017 4:18:19 PM PDT
    Wolf, first I did not quote you, I replied to the general thought that is being propagated by those that support abortion as “someone will do it so make it legal”. I do not support more laws since more laws mean less freedom. As to what should be done if this debate is to be civil let’s start with a little honesty.

    All of the arguments for the support of abortion have had a totally negative effect on our society. We kill more babies per year than the Nazi’s killed Jews during their reign of terror. We now have a higher rate of teenage pregnancies, unwed mothers, more single mothers with multiple fathers of their out of wedlock children, an increase in sexually communicable diseases and the list goes on. More could be said, but it wouldn’t make any difference to those that support abortion as a woman’s choice instead killing of unborn babies for the protection of the mother's life, incest, rape and not for birth control.

    There is nothing that can be done to completely stop unacceptable behavior, but there is something that can be done minimize unacceptable behavior. Stop making excuses for it and stop saying wrong is right. What is needed is restoration of the moral fabric to our society not an enabling of evil. This is done with what you call “poorly disguised religious documents” such as the Ten Commandments and the other tenets of the Christian religion that made this country into the greatest country in the history of the world.

    Wolf if you reply to this, please don’t start with all of the wrong things that were committed in the name of religion or use the Old Testament. The Old Testament is history, the Law of Moses is over and that is why we are called Christians. If you also start to tell how corrupt and bad this country is now, I will agree with you, but it didn’t use to be that way. We can thank the progressive movement for that, but it is still better than anything else out there or we wouldn’t have all of these people trying to get in here illegally or legally.
    • 1133 posts
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    July 17, 2017 7:08:33 PM PDT
    We live under a country that makes a distinct separation between church and state. If you make laws based upon, "The Bible tells us so" that separation vanishes completely. That is not to say religious belief is wrong, but it is not the basis upon which our laws are to be made. Moral law can be upheld without religious grounds. For instance, the abortion occurring in the 8th or 9th month without medical necessity can be opposed without religious conviction. Medical science tells us such practice is unsound. When a person is tried for murder, they are not tried by biblical text but secular law which has a set criteria(intent etc.) and which has shown to undermine the fabric and structure of society. Some laws which attempt to do this are well founded, while others are not. Some change because they are no longer relevant. However once you use religion to dictate law we become no better than any other tyrannical country. Imagine an officer telling a judge grant me a search warrant because God spoke to me and told me this person is evil, and the judge granting the request because both officer and judge believed God talks to us. How quickly would that spiral into an imbalanced legal system?

    It's a fine line to walk, granted, but it must be walked for the sake of equality and impartiality. In the case of abortion, there are deeper undercurrents which have to be addressed, just like addiction. You can't just outlaw a drug without addressing the underlying reasons for drug use along with it. However, I have yet to see any abortion laws, Pro or Con, which does so. Thus the problem will continue, and since it will why not to a least mitigate the damage in some way while a better solution is sought and worked out. It's like complaining we are loosing all our soldiers to war, but we keep sending them out to war. The dilemma of the military medical unit, patch em up and send them back out to the battlefield to get wounded or killed. 100% healing and adherence to the doctors oath would be to patch them up and send them home. The reality is that doesn't happen.

    That is the dilemma we face. How do we end it?
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    July 18, 2017 8:45:30 AM PDT
    Hi guys, I appreciate reading your thoughts about this issue. It is indeed a difficult topic and one where 100% consensus will never be achieved. I just wanted to provide a little insight on the late term abortion issue, which is commonly misunderstood. Late term abortion is NOT where the woman or girl ends her pregnancy the day before she gives birth just because she decides she doesn't want to have the responsibility. It is very rare and usually to save the life of the mother. I have read a couple first hand accounts of when it was used and it's a very sad, difficult time for the family. In one case, a mother of three was carrying a baby with serious defects that was dying. The baby was also going to kill her if she didn't have an abortion. So the family decided to have the abortion and save the mother. She was terribly upset, being very strong in her religious beliefs and opposed to abortion, but realized that her other children needed her to live. Thank god for modern medicine and the ability to save this woman and keep the family whole!
    By not outlawing late term abortion we allow the doctors and the families the ability to make tough choices.
    It will be interesting to see if the abortion rate goes down in Oregon after this bill is implemented. If criminalizing abortions/drugs/prostitution actually worked, then why are they still around? That approach is obviously not working (for everyone).
    • 631 posts
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    July 20, 2017 12:36:55 PM PDT
    cymbalyon said, “If criminalizing abortions/drugs/prostitution actually worked, then why are they still around? That approach is obviously not working (for everyone).

    That can be said for murder, theft, assault, abuse, drunk driving, or anything that is a crime. Your answer is to legalize everything and then it will stop being wrong. Abortion is legal and it has not gone down it has gone up, read my above post. Legalizing something wrong does not make it go away, it just makes more acceptable for some people.

    Wolf, the First Amendment is “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; it means there will not be a state religion and any religion can be practiced. It does not mean religion is excluded from the law. If you look back at the history of this country you would know that the Christian religion is very much a part of our legal system. Up until the late 50’s the Ten Commandments were found in our courts, you swore on the Bible to tell the truth and nothing but the truth in court, Moses is holding the ten Commandments on Supreme Court building, our national motto is “In God We Trust” and the list goes on. Below is a history of some of the many Christian things in our history not only legal, but encourage by the law. This is a quote from the below, “The spiritual heritage of the United States of America is obvious. Numerous other of the most important American government leaders, institutions, monuments, buildings, and landmarks both openly acknowledge and incorporate religious words, symbols, and imagery into official venues. Such acknowledgments are even more frequent at the state and local level than at the Federal level, where thousands of such acknowledgments exist.”

    http://www.allabouthistory.org/spiritual-heritage-and-government-monuments-faq.htm
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    July 20, 2017 9:39:59 PM PDT
    Dp, there is also prohibition from forcing someone to swear an oath on the bible or to God (both in the bible and in law). Those who do not believe in God etc. are not required to swear an oath of honesty to God, but rather to the court that they will tell the truth. Swearing to tell the truth happens regardless if it is a religious requirement or not. Secular word to tell the truth in court is just as binding as putting your hand on the bible and saying "So help me God." The courts could care less about someone being religious or not. As long as they are honest with the court and in their testimony, regardless if it means putting a hand on the bible or simply agreeing to tell the truth. The California Penal Code, Administrative code, Welfare and Institution Code etc. are the citation and standard of law and legal decision making. The Bible is not used as the standard of decision making or citation or in the determination of guilt or innocence. In fact, to insure impartiality judges and jurors and Law Enforcement are required to set aside their personal beliefs in the performance of their duties. As are therapists, medical doctors etc. The law may have sprung forth from religious sources, but religion is not the standard. The 10 commandments may be present as a historical reminder where the law came from, but they are never cited in violations of the law or sentencing being carried out. Granted it can be a fine line to walk, but for the law to be impartial if must remain free of religious constraints other wise it is not law but doctrine which is subjective as opposed to objective.

    If memory serves me correctly, there is concern and has been over the past decades about the presence of religious symbology and icons inside, outside and on the courts. In some instances those icons have been removed and the law has functioned just fine without them. If someone feels the law is religiously or otherwise not impartial to them then there is more of a chance injustices will go unaddressed. If nothing else perception matters.
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    July 21, 2017 8:07:41 AM PDT
    cynbalyon, you DO admit that criminalizing drugs prostitution, etc. DOES work for some. That's all we can hope for.....there is no "perfect" percentage. At least you see now, good for you,.
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    July 21, 2017 11:51:50 AM PDT
    It is kind of ironic it didn't work for Alcohol, simply drove it underground. Prohibition did more for the promotion and growth of alcohol than legalizing it ever did.
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    July 21, 2017 3:57:17 PM PDT
    Uh, They never mention just how many people stopped drinking during prohibition. It was all about revenue back then. Much different times.
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    July 23, 2017 4:59:43 PM PDT
    Not really except no we have the proof alcohol and tobacco cause just as much damage and are just as much addictive as marijuana and other drugs yet one is opposed to being legalized while the other two are allowed free reign. I don't like that marijuana is legalized, but if one pushes to criminalize it again one also has to push for alcohol and tobacco to meet the same fate (especially now we have the research proving alcohol and tobacco are just as deadly and have clearer links to disease than marijuana does, although that too is changing. However the difference is the amount of usage. Alcohol and Tobacco far exceeds marijuana use. Medically Abortion should be the least of the worries for the medical profession as there are larger issues such as the abuse of prescription drugs, unnecessary medical procedures which drive up insurance costs and outrageous medical cost under insurances. The same medical community who by the way will tell you alcohol use and tobacco use when ceased will lead to a medically healthier person who is sick less and faces less health problems. The issue becomes if you can't live without alcohol or tobacco and would continue to use them anyways if they were criminalized, you are an addict and a criminal. But that's a discussion for another thread.
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    August 11, 2017 8:18:41 AM PDT
    MJ is legal now, that won't change. What people don't know about cigarettes ia that it isn't the nicotine that kills, it's the tar and other substances. Yet people who smoke MJ are so stupid, they don't realize they are putting smoke and dangerous substance into their lungs. Just stupid people! Ans no media have reported the real facts about smoking MJ.